Light air gear forum

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Light air gear forum

Postby Trip Houk » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:24 am

So, I'm ready to look for an up grade in our light air gear: I want something wide enough and light enough to plane early but not so big as to limit maneurverability.
I'm toying with the new Techno II 160 or possibly the Starboard Carve 162 ...or maybe the Tiga X-Game or then again the JP X-Cite 165. However after reading the various reviews, I'm no clearer on the trade-offs with each of these models. (Marty here's your chance to tell me there's no reason to buy I light wind board when I could simply get another kite )
Has anyone noticed that the pictures of various board shapes seem completely unrelated to their stated dimensions? Eg: The Bic Techno II 160 and the Starboard Carve 162 are virtually identical in legnth, weight, width and volume. Yet the pictures of these two models make them look like they're totally diffrent animals and the reviews are even more divergent!
If anyone can direct me to a site where there's a forum discussion about the new big gear (aside from the Windsurf review) it would be welcome :? .
Thanks in advance,
Trip
"Sail fast...Live slow"
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Re: Light air gear forum

Postby Marty Lowe » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:40 am

Trip Houk wrote: (Marty here's your chance to tell me there's no reason to buy I light wind board when I could simply get another kite )
Trip


My choice lightwind w/s gear...
Techno 283 150l
7.5 no cam race sail (north)
key for me..
adjustable outhaul.

Did I just date my gear????

I'm way out of the loop...

but I'll never sell this setup.


-Marty 8)
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Postby Josh Shirley » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:02 am

Trip:
I don't have anything that big but, I would narrow your choice between the Carve and JP. Dubock has the carve 135(?) and it rides like a small board. Feels smooth planes fast is light and can hold a big sail.
The JP's feel very similiar but I think they are faster. I think Sara has a JP Excite 150.
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Light air gear

Postby John Dubock » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:11 pm

The real deal is unique and not small but one option is: A Formula 100cm wide board, 70+cm fin, 10.0+ sail, big boom, 520 mast. After watching Carl C. have a field day in what I'd call NO wind Sunday from 5pm to dark at Island Beach I'm a believer. Carl is the no wind planing King of the Lake, true he had an extreme setup. 12.5 sail is massive and not for the average sailor.

The Carve series is butter smooth, high resale value. The C 131 is rangey, might go down to 6.2 semi comfortably. George Ward, Willy Strugis have C 131's. Dave O rode Carves for 2 weeks in Bonaire and became a believer. John Freed has a C 145.

Personally I think the C 165+ is too big, and might weigh too much. In gusty, light Utah air it seems like wide and light board weight is best. Sarah can put on a planing clinic with her Formula board and a 9.0.

Older Formula boards are on the used market, usually 400-650$.
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Light air gear

Postby Trip Houk » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:31 pm

Gentlemen, (loose term) As you can see from my choice of avitar, my needs are simple and primative. The Techo 283 and 7.5M North I currently have work great at 15>20. However, I'm convinced that something a little wider and somewhat shorter might plane faster and yet still make a jibe possible without having to relearn the technique.
What I'm looking for is a place I can go to look at a discussion of the merits of each of the new models available. I'd love to demo all the new designs but haven't been invited yet to the test session in Hawaii.
I've looked at the Formula format and know they plane easily and are relatively cheap but am not convinced that I want something that doubles as a ping pong table. Stay tuned: I think Dimo (as usual) may have been ahead of his time with the hollow sectioned board he built some years back!
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Barn doors

Postby John Dubock » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:18 pm

http://www.star-board.com and http://www.gaastra.com are a good start for worldwide discussions.
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Re: Light air gear

Postby Craig Goudie » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm

Well, maybe you want a Hypersonic 133. Carl tells me I should
be able to use my 9.5 on it, and you'll get the chance to see me
struggling to use that combo at DC when my Gorge pass runs out in
late October. I'm figuring planing in about 10 MPH. It's either that
or my Kite ;*)

Have a look at this stuff from the Starboard forum

http://www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl ... arch&psel=

-Craig

Trip Houk wrote:Gentlemen, (loose term) As you can see from my choice of avitar, my needs are simple and primative. The Techo 283 and 7.5M North I currently have work great at 15>20. However, I'm convinced that something a little wider and somewhat shorter might plane faster and yet still make a jibe possible without having to relearn the technique.
What I'm looking for is a place I can go to look at a discussion of the merits of each of the new models available. I'd love to demo all the new designs but haven't been invited yet to the test session in Hawaii.
I've looked at the Formula format and know they plane easily and are relatively cheap but am not convinced that I want something that doubles as a ping pong table. Stay tuned: I think Dimo (as usual) may have been ahead of his time with the hollow sectioned board he built some years back!
Craig Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
150 Sumo, 8'6"RRD TT, 8'2"Cross M
with Sailworks/Naish Sails

Sailing the Gorge on my:
8'4" Open Ocean, 7'9" Open Ocean Slasher, 8'0"Hitech
with Northwave Sails
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Hypertalk

Postby John Dubock » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:03 pm

Duane K has a HS 133, looks cool, but talk to him, he struggled in light winds on it at DC. Doesn't Sir Goudie have a HS 133 lurking about?
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Light air board forum

Postby Trip Houk » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:21 pm

Craig and John et all,
Thanks for your links. It's interesting that on the Starboard forum there are a huge number of posts regarding the Techno E large. Yes I saw Dunae trying out his new HS 133 on Sunday. He mentioned that it wallowed a bit in slog conditions and seemed sticky until it broke loose. It's a funny looking board with no nose and is 90+ cm wide or so. If he keeps beating it up like he did Sunday, it should be for sale soon.
This all helpful. I'm sure it's not a substitute for demo-days but it beats the Dow-off 71. :lol:
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Re: Hypertalk

Postby Craig Goudie » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:09 pm

Yes I do, and I've ridden it with an 8.5 which works surprisingly well.
Don't know about the 9.5 yet.

-Craig

John Dubock wrote:Duane K has a HS 133, looks cool, but talk to him, he struggled in light winds on it at DC. Doesn't Sir Goudie have a HS 133 lurking about?
Craig Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
150 Sumo, 8'6"RRD TT, 8'2"Cross M
with Sailworks/Naish Sails

Sailing the Gorge on my:
8'4" Open Ocean, 7'9" Open Ocean Slasher, 8'0"Hitech
with Northwave Sails
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Postby John Freed » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:54 am

Trip,
I have the Carve 145, run a 9.5 on it... if I had to do it again I "might" have jumped for the 131/135 instead, something a little smaller. If you want to try my board, holler (582-3531).
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Comments from the Formula wannabee

Postby DimitriMilovich » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:28 pm

OK, Trip, I'll wade in with my too-wordy, entirely second-hand opinions on all this new stuff. I've been mulling over the same questions myself, ever since I got Formula-envy (or is that big fin envy?) watching Carl own the lake. As a starter, I have carefully calibrated that with my Roberts AVS, 70 x 279 w/54 cm fin and aged NP Z-1 8.7 race sail, I was able to plane in 9 kts of steady whitecap-less N breeze at Rush or UL some years ago, (without the added weight of a wetsuit) but that's working pretty hard.

Carl makes it look so easy because he's such an excellent sailor, but it is clear that bigger gear and boards really work well these days. The big question for you is: What's the turn-on, planing or jibing? No fair saying "both", because I don't think you get both. At some point I think you have to choose. Already, with my Roberts, the jibing became 2nd place to the planing, although newer boards of the same ilk now do jibe better (I hear).

If you want to be out there planing and owning the lake, exploring up and downwind and generally laughing at the rest of us w/o such gear, clearly Formula stuff is the way to go. And it's not just for the lightest of air. I saw a guy on Formula gear last summer at Rio Vista in 15-20 mph winds. It was absolutely jaw-dropping astonishing to me how he could go up and down wind. It's like a whole new type of sailcraft has been created, really quite a bit different from the BAFO sailing most of us do. I think the reward would be the intellectual grins as well the visceral giggles of sailing at double the windspeed in chopless water. Overall, just hugely satisfying like windsurfing alone of few other sports can be - if that's your cup of tea. Maybe something analogous to it would be mastering full-on GS racing skis - pure carving all the time, w/o letup, along with the attendant demands of having to have perfectly fitted boots, perfectly tuned skis, just the right wax, etc. to make it all happen. Not a perfect analogy, but like with all sailing gear, you'd want all your stuff to match and operate at the same level, i.e., you probably don't want to buy a Formula board and put a camless 10.5 on it.

I think those larger boards you are considering, which are a step below even the detuned Formula boards that several mfrs offer, are designed for people who don't want to think about their edges or their wax, or their adjustable outhauls, or camber inducers or fin nicks. And when you jibe them, they do feel somewhat like the jibe you get to do on your 6.5. But even at their best, you will be a small buoy in Carl's rear view mirror. Get the drift?

I just sailed almost the whole Carve line in Bonaire myself last month, but it wasn't very satisfying in the larger sizes, because when it's light, I want to go upwind NOW and explore, and they weren't set up for that, nor do I think they are the right board for that - I know even my old Roberts would leave them in the dust (dust?), but I digress.

So, planing or jibing? Choices, choices. I think you should take up some folks of offers to try gear. Hell, my Bob is for rent for a measly single beer per day, anytime you want to borrow it is fine for me (I'll be in Hawaii last two weeks in June if you wanna borrow it.) Although beware that it takes some time to get any new board figured out. I'm sure Carl, Jimbo and Sarah would have some other good opinions on this. They at least own some big gear...

For closers (whew!), look for Roger Jackson's comments on rec.windsurfing. I think he's a big proponent of large camless sails (Sailworks Retro) and high-end-not-qute-Formula boards, and he's got loads of experience. Let me know what you finally get so I can come borrow it, OK?
Last edited by DimitriMilovich on Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Roger Jackson email

Postby John Dubock » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:37 pm

sailquik@mindspring.com he's the master blaster.
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Light Air Gear

Postby Trip Houk » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:09 pm

Dimo,
As usual you are are storehouse of helpful information and humor. You're right. I'm greedy. I want a setup that will plane early and jibe smoothly. If I read your insight correctly, I think you're saying that I can't have both and I should just break down and get a formula. I think Sara told me the same thing.
By the way, what is Carl sailing that is so superior? Is he on the HS 133? Is the Hypersonic some kind of hybred or is there a trade-off for that format as well? If the choice is plane or jibe, I guess it's an easier decision than I thought. I don't want to disappear in any rear view mirrors!
I appreciate all the constructive advice. I now have enough offers, (in writing) to borrow the equipment I need and I may be able to make it through the summer without buying anything. I wish I'd thought of this idea sooner.
[i]Hey Duane, Craig, Dimo, Carl, Marty, Josh, Johns... where are you sailing this weekend? Maybe I'll leave my trailer at home and judt load up on beer....[/i]Trip :lol:
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Hyper talk

Postby John Dubock » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:10 am

The Hypersonic is a trade off, not super wide, nor super light like a true Formula board. Upside: rangey, tough, low gear requirements as to average fin/sail/boom size. Downside: funny looks from non Hyper riders, still get left in the dust by Formulas, some limits as to huge sail size due to short length.

Trip, just buy Carl C breakfast at his beloved Blue Plate Diner, he'll wax on forever as to his specialized Formula gear. Carl is dedicated to speed, he trains all year long and invests in exactly what works, never compromises on gear (he's also not married, doesn't have to get approval, nor hide gear purchases).

Hypers aren't the end all board, they don't work well in schlog conditions, won't 'create' wind, and you do have to bear off to get on a plane.

sounds like Trip's summer is set! Free advice, boards, better start a sail size thread right away!
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